Bad News

[Gr4H4m]

mmmm..... not a good day :mad: only got 46bhp on the rolling road and I had 43 when I went in....


The timing was checked but correct, mixture was re-set, and I had two new needles, cost at www.balmuirgarage.co.uk, as John said "Its not cheap".

I can't understand it I was thinking at least 50BHP, unless Morspeed haven't chopped enough off of the head to get the CR up or I haven't set the tappets correctly, but the guy at the rolling road didn't seem interested in the tappets, even when I said they might be wrong, as I had set them.

Then when I got home she was running fast on idle, and I noticed some pink water laying between the head and the block, It must be from the cooling, maybe the head gasket isn't fitted correctly, but its not missing?

I must admit it feels a bit more urgent but its not as sweet running when it had the single and the pea shooter. In fact I'm thinking of putting it all back, just haven't got the time, not sure what to do about the water leaking, but it looks like the head will have to come off, looks like a busy new year.

[moddinmad]

sorry to hear it mate, bet ur gutted stil not bad power tho. seen as u spent all the time setting it all up id not give up just yet. keep trying it wil be fantastic when u get it running right

[charlie_mini]

must be gutted mate, you've done really well to get it running like that! only needs a bit of dst and it will go like a rocket!! :D

[Deano]

Get it down to the rolling road in hawarden they are very very good will even profile you your own needle`s to get the car running sweet:)

[charlie_mini]

Get it down to the rolling road in hawarden they are very very good will even profile you your own needle`s to get the car running sweet:)
think a rolling road is all thats missing from 'deano's world of mini's isn't it??' maybe thats for next christmas!!????
:rolleyes:

[Siano :)]

lol, don't give him ideas u'll be sending kaye mad lol

[Gr4H4m]

mmm, I know they did a great job on Johns car, which was the reason I chose them of the other one, and it wasn't for the want of trying but... not a good result. The car feels lumpy and is too high when idling, for the cost I'm going to ring them tomorrow, as its making it hard to drive. Can't afford another run at the Hawarden RR as I have blown more than I expected at this one..... it was 150 inc VAT:eek:

but more worrying is the fact that it appears to be seeping water from the head gasket since the run????? I wonder if its not tight or that its loosened after a heat cycle???

[johncaerwys]

Sounds like a bit of a downer all round. If it's not running right, i'd hoik it back first thing tomorrow, I'm sure he'll have another go. If you get it running right, everything else will fade away. Seemed to be the sort who'd try his best. I'wouldn't get too hung up on the small BHP increase. Like everything else, it's the law of diminishing returns, it equates to about 9% up on the previous figure. That seems q good to me, especially as what you've fitted is not an exact science. Because of this of course it may never be right, then it's a job of going back to basics, getting it right, then adding one thing at a time, and re running the tests each time. Ouch!!!.

Suggest stripping the engine down on Christmas morning, or during the queen's speech. Good test of the strength of your marriage.

[Gr4H4m]

John that is the best laugh I have had all week......:D :D :D I tell you what bring that hammer and blunt chisel you’ve got and you can give me a hand….

Yep I’m going to give them a ring as the revs are too high at tick-over and I sound like a learner at the lights which is not good for my street cred.

Morspeed recon my CR is too low as I have dished pistons even with them taking 80tho off the head.

I’m not too bothered as John said I just want it running right. I’ll give them a ring tomorrow and see what he has to say.

[Cheater2k]

Be worth looking up A and B Garage in harwden, very good with the minis and extremly helpfull :) also good rolling road and good bunch of fellers, and even more important, charge alotless than most places. :)

Alot lighter on the wallet than balmiur as well, really rate these guys well so if u need anything, pop down there :)

[Deano]

John that is the best laugh I have had all week......:D :D :D I tell you what bring that hammer and blunt chisel you’ve got and you can give me a hand….

Yep I’m going to give them a ring as the revs are too high at tick-over and I sound like a learner at the lights which is not good for my street cred.

Morspeed recon my CR is too low as I have dished pistons even with them taking 80tho off the head.

I’m not too bothered as John said I just want it running right. I’ll give them a ring tomorrow and see what he has to say.


Is it a copper head gasket?

[supadupacupa]

If you give me the chamber size on the head as it stands now (morspeed will know it) we can work out the compression ratio. It would be good to be getting a result of 9:1 and a tops really of 10:1. Anything much higher and you would be looking at addatives and that add's to your fuel costs.

It is not unknown to a freashly skimmed head to settle a little on to the block. I would go over the head bolts and rocker bolts again with a torque wrench (a accurate one) , just to make sure. It really should be dry around the gasket. Tappets should be set up as per manual at this stage of tuning and the standard cam.

It should be really running smooth if set up properly, did the chaps at the RR say it was running rich or lean (I suspect rich).

What needles are you running? I can look them up in my charts.

And remember, rolling roads are only as good as their operators, I have no experience of this one so I can't comment. But you do get good and bad.

I know of a few who claim to get that extra few bhp but in fact its just a badly calibrated RR. In the end of the day, you should be looking at a smooth and improved drive, the actual numbers a by product. A good standard old a series thou will kick out 34 bhp on a good day. add a stage 1 kit and that may jump to 37-40 (don't believe the hype!), add the head your looking at and you'll see 47 ish set up right.

Original cooper's were quoted when new at 55, in reality this figure was really closer to 50. So when you look at your result, that's about right taking into acount the slightly different cam profile.

With the right needle's in it, it should be running smooth and more spritely than the original set up. Don't expect a road burner, but it will be fun.

[Gr4H4m]

Is it a copper head gasket?
Dean no it wasn't I was supplied it by Morspeed so I was thinking it should be ok? I have since ordered a copper one from Somerford's should be here tomorrow.... in case I want to test my marriage over Christmas:D


If you give me the chamber size on the head as it stands now (morspeed will know it) we can work out the compression ratio. It would be good to be getting a result of 9:1 and a tops really of 10:1. Anything much higher and you would be looking at addatives and that add's to your fuel costs.

It is not unknown to a freashly skimmed head to settle a little on to the block. I would go over the head bolts and rocker bolts again with a torque wrench (a accurate one) , just to make sure. It really should be dry around the gasket. Tappets should be set up as per manual at this stage of tuning and the standard cam.

It should be really running smooth if set up properly, did the chaps at the RR say it was running rich or lean (I suspect rich).

What needles are you running? I can look them up in my charts.

And remember, rolling roads are only as good as their operators, I have no experience of this one so I can't comment. But you do get good and bad.

I know of a few who claim to get that extra few bhp but in fact its just a badly calibrated RR. In the end of the day, you should be looking at a smooth and improved drive, the actual numbers a by product. A good standard old a series thou will kick out 34 bhp on a good day. add a stage 1 kit and that may jump to 37-40 (don't believe the hype!), add the head your looking at and you'll see 47 ish set up right.

Original cooper's were quoted when new at 55, in reality this figure was really closer to 50. So when you look at your result, that's about right taking into acount the slightly different cam profile.

With the right needle's in it, it should be running smooth and more spritely than the original set up. Don't expect a road burner, but it will be fun.

supadupacupa - thanks for the advice I had decided on the way home to give them another going over to see if they are still tight, so I must be thinking a bit more mechanical :) I think the needles were M's and the car was too rich when I took it in.

I will try and take a pic of the power chart. The torque was at 50 lbs/ft The curve was much better after he finished, and from what you were saying the power is about right. Morspeed said they worked my C/R out to 9.0:1 and they would want 10.5:1 in a 998. They took 80 tho off of the head. They said that I would see more gain with a new CAM, but that is way above my skill level to fit, and I don't want to effect the drive ability, so the choice of cam would be a serious one. The cam looks cheap until you pay for fitting and setup, and I wonder if I'm chasing the pot of gold.....
I spoke to the Rolling road and they are going to sort the high revving out, I just hope its not a problem I've caused with the carb rebuild. I didn't want to adjust it after just paying...

They said they were also going to compression test it so I can see the figures.

[Gr4H4m]

mm I think I have found a problem that could cause the high revving, looks like one of the pistons on the carbs wasn't returning properly. I have taken the dash-pot off and give everything a quick clean re-seated the needle as it wasn't quite flush and put the dash-pot on the other way round as it felt smoother that way, nipped up the screws and have done the test with the lift pin it seems to fall much better now.

Oh and the needles were M1 not M as I stated above.

[charlie_mini]

sounds promising mate, have you seen that mini-expert keith calver has written? i got mine off the man himself at sandon hall last year, but basically its about engine tuning, and how to tune a 998! (i've had to re-read it coz the new project is a 998 and i fancy making it a bit pokier!) I'm sure he goes for the same head you have on your mini, he puts a 997 cooper cam in it too for the smoothness and 1.3 rockers.
but then rolling roads it and gets about 48bhp at 5500rpm. and he is happy with that! :D
for making it go quicker, much quicker, have a look at the dave visard 'tuning the A series', chapter 19 (page475-500) :D:D:D
anyone with the book, have a look and know what i mean!

[Gr4H4m]

sounds promising mate, have you seen that mini-expert keith calver has written? i got mine off the man himself at sandon hall last year, but basically its about engine tuning, and how to tune a 998! (i've had to re-read it coz the new project is a 998 and i fancy making it a bit pokier!) I'm sure he goes for the same head you have on your mini, he puts a 997 cooper cam in it too for the smoothness and 1.3 rockers.
but then rolling roads it and gets about 48bhp at 5500rpm. and he is happy with that! :D
for making it go quicker, much quicker, have a look at the dave visard 'tuning the A series', chapter 19 (page475-500) :D
anyone with the book, have a look and know what i mean!

so 46 could be a good figure if that's the case as I have a standard cam, maybe the rolling road it on the low side rather than the high if you know what I mean. I don't want to go to all the trouble of a cam for 2bhp......:eek: The compression test should give a better idea if there are any probs.

[charlie_mini]

thats tru, could have done with a rr figure from before the Stage 1, head and twin SU's went on to compare how much you've added....
Before
......::::::::,,,,
After
../------\....

???

[Gr4H4m]

at £150 a time it would have been more expensive than the conversion:eek: .... Going to try A - B next time.

[charlie_mini]

at £150 a time it would have been more expensive than the conversion:eek: .... Going to try A - B next time.

:eek::eek:thats true!

[Deano]

Forget about the rolling road figures best off just getting it to feel right i very rarely take my mini`s to rolling road and even rarer get much increase after ive tuned it to my best ability. The old man is a wiz at setting timing up by ear:cool: so dont despair! a good torque figure can make your mini feel alot better and pull up those hills:)

[Cheater2k]

at £150 a time it would have been more expensive than the conversion:eek: .... Going to try A - B next time.

Well id recommend them :) Been there today to let them know ive done some adviseing and also mentioned the problem your having. Would even be worth just going down and saying helloto them, they will talk toya and try and help you out without seeing the car :)

[Gr4H4m]

Dean whats the advantage to the copper gasket?

[Gr4H4m]

Well id recommend them :) Been there today to let them know ive done some adviseing and also mentioned the problem your having. Would even be worth just going down and saying helloto them, they will talk toya and try and help you out without seeing the car :)

Thanks Mate.... Might be worth cutting my losses for anther £40.

[Cheater2k]

Thanks Mate.... Might be worth cutting my losses for anther £40.

Id say they would have it running perfect for u without a doubt, and also be betterin the wallet for it :)

[Deano]

Dean whats the advantage to the copper gasket?


I like em they take alot more stick (unless you have a steel one! ) the fibre type tend to fall apart & are generally thicker making comp ratio a little different:)

[supadupacupa]

The block and head tend to flex a little with heat and to some extent, strain. The cooper gaskets are flexy enough to cope with it without blowing, the fibre ones are not.

9:1 is fine, yeah in a ideal world you'd run to 10.5:1 and even more so if you changed the cam for something a little more sporty. But for what you have it will do the job and your engine will handle the crap fuel we have at our pumps all too often!!.

A series love high compression, but do you really need to go down the route of flat top pistons and tuning to the 12th degree.

Set up right yours would be fine. M's sound about the right profile (cooper 998's rich setting and Cooper S standard setting) The profile shape relates to demand at point's in the range and things like the cam profile affect this mostly at this state of tune.

I would think that the piston not sitting properly would be the cause of your issues. Twins settle down after a rebuild, you may find you will need to occasionally adjust the idle screws, but thats about that. They dont drop out of tune like a few people like to tell you. That's the point's job!!

Just a note on the head bolts. When you skim loads off a head, always ensure that the head nuts are not bottoming out on the threads. Make sure you use the correct washers and if they are, minispares sell thicker ones.

[TONYELF]

On the subject of crap petrol. A M8 tells me that he':confused: s heard that Supermarket fuel is of lower standard than the National Companies fuels (Which I find hard to believe) they all use the same Tanks at the refinery (don't they?)

[supadupacupa]

It might be that they don't have much in the way of addatives in them. On a higher tuned car (loads of compression and really sensitive to octane levels) it can be noticed quite easily.

I also find that the modern petrol goes "off" quickly.

If I dont run my car for a month (its a rally car and not my daily driver) it runs like a pig until I pump in some fresh fuel. If you sniff the old stuff at the filler (not as a solvent abuse method!!, kids don't try this at home!) it does not smell like petrol.

I do know that optimax (or whatever it is called now) tesco 99 and the like make it run much sweeter. It makes me wonder if this stuff is at a higher octane level or that the cheaper stuff is just bad!!

So old petrol can/could cause rough running.

[TONYELF]

For normal personal motoring my Picasso runs on Morrisons Diesel and seems fine (and when towing caravan) when I can't get Supermarket fuel (on holiday) I use a National company (no preference) The picasso doe's seem to have a "little" more poke . Or maybe thats my imagination!:) I have to admit, being a diesel it is not the perkiest of motors to drive and I don't notice any difference solo

[supadupacupa]

I definately have good and bad diesel problems, like you say, usually towing the trailer with the mini on or I have a hobby that I move around twice a year.

I have a discovery Td5 and the diesel can mean the difference between night and day. I don't know what they do with the stuff, but I can't seem to pin it down to any particular supplier. I just notice the difference when I fill up fresh.

I put injector cleaner in a couple of times a year too.

[Gr4H4m]

Thanks for the replies guys..... very helpful, Ive got a copper one on order should get it tomorrow.

I'm just waiting for John to confirm he has his Hammer and Blunt chisel ready to give me a hand:D :D ;)

I will change the gasket incase I don't want any problems on the run

[Iceman]

sounds like a good place :)

[Gr4H4m]

ok heres the power curve pic. I also got the new head gasket today from Somerford's service is good and to quality looks much better that the last one from Morspeed, not as thick.

[TONYELF]

What a beauty! I've only worked with copper gaskets (head) all my life (and Iv'e done few!) and always used a torque wrench , wouldn't be without it!
Good luck with that Gr4h4m:)

[Deano]

In my student days when it wasnt miles per gallon it was miles per engine i reused a copper head gasket re-heating in the oven it lasted intill i blew the diff out the gearbox but wouldnt recomend that:p

[TONYELF]

In my student days when it wasnt miles per gallon it was miles per engine i reused a copper head gasket re-heating in the oven it lasted intill i blew the diff out the gearbox but wouldnt recomend that:p

Is the "diff" as in "Diff"erent engines and gearboxes ? LOL:D
(Gr4h4m.Have sent you a PM)

[Gr4H4m]

diff's gulp.....

Thanks Tony sent you a PM back, its marriage testing time.....

[Gr4H4m]

My new copper gasket doesn't have top stamped on it????

Should it be copper side down or silver side down:

Silver
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q18/Mini_Addicts_Gr4H4m/Gas_B.jpg

Copper
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q18/Mini_Addicts_Gr4H4m/Gas_A.jpg

Going to change it tomorrow as I dont want any issues on the run

[TONYELF]

I take it you changed your head gasket then, Or did they put you right, Which side is up then?
I think copper side up?:confused:

[Gr4H4m]

From what I have been told its copper side up.... going to change it on Friday.

[Gr4H4m]

Weel I took everything off today and replaced the gasket. The old one had a couple of "pull" marks at the back arround the stud wholes, must have been user installation error. most of the black fibre material at the front broke up when I took it off, I presume it was cracked and thats why it was leaking water??? still the new one is on now... just filled it up with water and the thermostat housing is leaking... I used one of those cork gaskets but I couldn't get it to sit right, it kept spreading out everything it did the nuts up... I will have to change it tomorrow for a paper one and use a little sealant, as I think the the bottom of the thermo housing it a little out, I have tried to square it up with some gentle filing.

Mini's you have to love them.:o

[charlie_mini]

Weel I took everything off today and replaced the gasket.
couldn't you have done it with your clothes on???

Mini's you have to love them.:o
we all must do... or we're all mental??? make up your own minds!!! :)

[Gr4H4m]

couldn't you have done it with your clothes on???


we all must do... or we're all mental??? make up your own minds!!! :)

he he he he he.. It was a little cold:D

[Gr4H4m]

Had to make a new thermo gasket as I didn't have a new one (I had some gasket paper). I have used some blue compound this time and put some on the back thread as water shot up from that stud hole when I took the housing off...... I presume the head has a hiole from when its been machined out??? my old head isn't like this.

I will let it dry tonight and then fill it with water tomorrow.

On another note I looked at the old head gasket and there was pink stains arroung the water cooling holes, so it wasn't water tight??? I think when I pulled it down last time one of the back stud holes caught and pulled it forward and broke the fibre, and then the seal..... I hope the new one is ok.... Going to take it for a run tomorrow and then re-check the nuts...

[TONYELF]

Sorry to hear of your probs G. I still believe in tightening down again after 500 miles or after a good run of at least 100 mile (by which time it should have run for a while at top temp?) You sure the rolling road hasn,t hasn't caused the head gasket to go?

[Gr4H4m]

Sorry to hear of your probs G. I still believe in tightening down again after 500 miles or after a good run of at least 100 mile (by which time it should have run for a while at top temp?) You sure the rolling road hasn,t hasn't caused the head gasket to go?

I dont think so but its running quite cold.... so I have put the old thermostat in that I was using before. (82 deg).

I will take it for a run tomorrow. got to make sure its all ok for the run

[Deano]

make sure there is no water at all in any of the stud holes stops the head seating properly:)

[Gr4H4m]

make sure there is no water at all in any of the stud holes stops the head seating properly:)

got it all out by putting the studs in and then mopping it up so it should be ok this time... fingers crossed. Thanks Mate

[Gr4H4m]

Well, anther day has passed. I have stopped the thermostat housing from leaking yippeee.

but... it still appears to be seeping from the gasket at the front I checked the troque settings and then I took it for a run today to get it up to temp. It has stopped seeping but I don't know if its becasue everything had got hot?

Should I have used some gasket sealant when putting the head gasket on?? I have read it should be a dry fit. I was extra careful that all of the surfaces were clean and free of any crap... Its now doing my head in and I'm starting to wonder if its the head, as so far I have totaly trusted the fact Morspeed have rebuilt it.....


G

[Deano]

steel ruler on the face would tell if its warped but i would give em all another 5lb of pressure once its cooled :)

[Gr4H4m]

steel ruler on the face would tell if its warped but i would give em all another 5lb of pressure once its cooled :)

mm I was thinking the same thing. I will give it 5lb more and if not I will get anonther gasket and strip it all done again to check the head with a steel rule and a torch.

[Gr4H4m]

Dean you are a star.. 5lb more and the world it a better place.... I think the saga is over... all seems ok..

Took it for a run and since I have used this cooper gasket the car feels a little quicker maybe its me but it does feel nippy now..... yippeeee:D

[Mark"H"]

Glad to see all has turned out well for you in the end. Are you bringing her out for a run on Wednesday??

[Gr4H4m]

Cheers mate

yes I might I want to get a few miles under my belt before the big trek on the 14th

[TONYELF]

Dean you are a star.. 5lb more and the world it a better place.... I think the saga is over... all seems ok..

Took it for a run and since I have used this cooper gasket the car feels a little quicker maybe its me but it does feel nippy now..... yippeeee:D

I suppose that 'll be the equivalent of a 500 mile checkup I mentioned before?
Keep the torque wrench for a while GR4h4m. Give it me in Llandudno on the Orme. Thats a date! LOL:D