Rear Subframe

[charlie_mini]

Has anyone ever heard that you cant weld a subframe up? it causes excessive corrosion to the 'frame. Weakens it and you will never pass an mot with a welded subframe!?

I hadn't heard it either! this got told to my mum this morning as she tried to book charlie into another MOT, same guy who had told he my subframe was heavily corroded, (infact it was covered in mud!) i've ground the 2 little tiny starts of corrosion down (they hadn't even penetrated the 'frame properly!) ground them to bare metal and put a plate over the 2 patches to help protect them, only to be told that you can't weld subframes at all!

I smell something brown and steaming! Quick call to M&M's about it, half to check i was right, half to get a price incase i need a new one!
they confirmed the guy is chatting out of his rear subframe!!!
anyone else heard about this or is this guy really trying hard to scam my mum!! ???

comments welcome

[Gr4H4m]

Eric you could always try another test station.. I had a GTE once and the front cross member had a bend/dent in it, it was patch welded at the test center always passed the MOT???


have a look here http://www.direct.gov.uk/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/Mot/MotArticles/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4022113&chk=i1%2BskO

It mentions excessive corrosion, like with most gov things its down to interpretation?

http://www.direct.gov.uk/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/Mot/MotArticles/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=10016070&chk=vzsMb2

[Deano]

He`s talking rubbish mate you can fail due to excess welding but that usually needs to be alot of welding. You could phone vosa and ask them to come and watch the Mot takeplace and if the tester is found to be in the wrong you usually get your test fee back but if you want my advise and less bother cut your loses and go somewhere else and let everyone know about your experience so it doesnt happen to any one else.
Cheers Deano

[charlie_mini]

well, charlie has been for a second opinion now, they got her up on ramps and my dad lookd at her with them. they said its fine to weld the subframes, but i have a little hole in it on the back edge where the battery box is but the metal on the frame is too thin, they could flex the bits that lay flat, so looks like i need a new one after all. maybe that was what the guy was tryin to say, 'welding it wont fix it' rather than you cant weld a subframe at all.
bloody chineese wispers! :(

[Gr4H4m]

At least its not the one with the engine in it....

[charlie_mini]

very optamistic of you mate! anyone got any ideas how much £££ i'd be looking at in labor for a garage to fit the frame? need the car back asap and if i do it, we could be waiting weeks!!
M&M's quoted £140+vat for a rear frame, good cond with radius arms etc. but that was just to supply it.. gonna see how much tomorrow!

[Gr4H4m]

sorry mate just trying to lift your spirits. Not sure on the price. There are loads on Ebay. you could try your luck?
If I knew how to change it I would offer you a hand:(

[charlie_mini]

its ok, its good to be optamistic!! :D gonna spk to M&M's first thing when i get to work, then if they want loads then i guess i'm gonna learn how to do it! got instructions in the 'restoration manual, in theory its easy! just getting the time to do it after work! :) guess i'm on for a marathon! at least i can do it thru the night, not welding or angle grinding! the neighbours shouldn't complain! :D

[Gr4H4m]

its ok, its good to be optamistic!! :D gonna spk to M&M's first thing when i get to work, then if they want loads then i guess i'm gonna learn how to do it! got instructions in the 'restoration manual, in theory its easy! just getting the time to do it after work! :) guess i'm on for a marathon! at least i can do it thru the night, not welding or angle grinding! the neighbours shouldn't complain! :D

If it comes complete it should be easier to bolt in? Was just thinking whats connected, brakes, maybe some fuel lines

[charlie_mini]

apparently there are 6 bolts that are holding it on, need to drain and take out the fuel tank, take the brake lines off, swop all the suspention and brake bits and bobz that aren't included, then try and get it back on, bleed the brakes, put the tank in etc. rekon its about 2 weeks :( you all know were i'll be on christmas day while everyones eating their christmas dinner! :(

[Siano :)]

apparently there are 6 bolts that are holding it on, need to drain and take out the fuel tank, take the brake lines off, swop all the suspention and brake bits and bobz that aren't included, then try and get it back on, bleed the brakes, put the tank in etc. rekon its about 2 weeks :( you all know were i'll be on christmas day while everyones eating their christmas dinner! :(

gud luk with that, but if it makes u feel better at least u'll be playing with a mini, i'll be in work :(

[charlie_mini]

on christmas day ?? gutted!! :D this is the first christmas in 9 years i've not been working! i'm only in 27th! apart from that i'm off 22/12 - 3/1/07!! :)

[Siano :)]

i gots new yr off tho :) sod xmas lol!!!!!!!

[charlie_mini]

never really been big on new year, whats everyone doing this year?

[Cooper D]

Well iv bin on me 1st day of me mot course today and it clearly states in the manual that u can make a repair on subframes as long as there is no strength lost ;) . So looks like that guy was chattin bull!!! Our lecturer also told us that you cannot actually remove anythin for the mot so if you do have any rust holes stick some duck tape over them!!!:rolleyes: Then they can only pass and advise! But if this doesn't help i can always give you a hand with a new subframe. As long as its not too early on saturday mornings between now an xmas coz iv got a feeling i'l be quite fragile.:o

[Cooper D]

never really been big on new year, whats everyone doing this year?

not decided yet, got plans to go to brannigans in chester but id rather not! it will be packed in there!!!

[Deano]

Your right about the 8 bolts mate but if you can get the front 4 out without snapping them you will be very lucky and the heal plate on the k reg`s rot really bad too so expect the worse there too :( changing the rear subframe is a nightmare and possibly one of the worst jobs on a mini especialy of you have to fit your old radius arms much better getting a good complete one.
Ive spent hours even day getting them front bolts out even had to cut a hole thru the sill to get to the back of one because the captive nut had snapped off:mad: .
I hope yours come out no problem which they do sometimes if thats the case the rest is a piece of cake:)
Cheers Deano

[markrally73]

very optamistic of you mate! anyone got any ideas how much £££ i'd be looking at in labor for a garage to fit the frame? need the car back asap and if i do it, we could be waiting weeks!!
M&M's quoted £140+vat for a rear frame, good cond with radius arms etc. but that was just to supply it.. gonna see how much tomorrow!


Oh dear, i couldnt give mine away a few months ago, in the end a guy from wrexham came and collected it!!!

Sorry mate you could have had minehttp://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/icons/banghead.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/simon5/subframe2.jpg

Good luck with the MOT!!

Cheers

[charlie_mini]

cheers mate, dont worry about it.
I've now got a complete subframe from M&M's, second hand but in really good condition. I wire brushed it down to check for any signs of rot, it looks like the whole thing was covered in red-oxide then about 3mm coating of waxoyl. 1 or 2 small spots were starting to go but on the whole nothing major. I've since ground the little bits of rust off (only very very minor!) and covered every edge of it with seam sealer to stop any moisture getting in there now. it's all now sitting very nicely covered in a thick coat of stone chip guard and 3 coats of black hammerite! Looks sweet now! :D
getting the old frame off as deano says isn't the easiest thing, the front bolts all came loose very easily, being covered in wd! but after 2/3 turns of the ratchet they came off in my hand! :( should be enough thread on them to extract them! hopefully! also we have a brake pipe spanner, specially designed to undo brake pipe! but it on the 't' peice bolter to the subframe to undo the pipe coming from the front of the car, it rounded it straight off:mad:
started trying to undo all the other bolts and mountings for that 't' peice and none of them want to play! but it's half 11 now and i got work tomorrow so i'll get stuck in when i get in from work again tomorrow!! who knows, everything else might run smoothly and i'll be done by thursday! :rolleyes:
anyone seen them flying pigs!!????

[Gr4H4m]

Try some penetrating oil, WD isn't as good... might give you that bit extra...


Good luck mate..... Karen and have been thinking baout your car...

[charlie_mini]

cheers, i was out till about 11 tonight, its not noisy trying to change the frame so wont be keeping the neighbours awake! i'll see if i can get some penetration oil (that sounds dodgy!) tomorrow, like i say hopefully the rest should come off ok but the luck i'm having so far.....
the new subframe is complete with the rear drums but i need to get them off and see what state the brakes are in, dont want to go to all this trouble then it fail on the back brakes! if they're gone i'm putting my mini in the park donated minifins on! :D now there's an excuse if ever i heard one!!
will try and get some more pics on tomorrow too...

[Siano :)]

:D good stuff hope shes all well soon :D

[Gr4H4m]

sounds like progress can't wait for the pics..... some serious work, she will be like a new car..

[charlie_mini]

well, the old frame is off now, only a couple of problems - mainly the lack of space and the gale force winds tonight! couldn't get my exhaust off! when i put it on i was convinced it was blowing from somewere and thing i've over-tightened the u-clamp! the clamp came off but the pipe at the top has a groove in the pipe that's stopping the top coming off! :( never mind, the old 'frame came off over the top of it!
only the 1 bold snapped taking it off but there's plenty of thread on it to get hold of to pull it out! (hopefully!) the main problem i've had was with the handbrake cable! trying to get it off the old frame thru the tiny gaps behind the radius arm! absolute nightmare! got there in the end tho, but it was once the frame was off the car completely and my whole handbrake from the lever to the drums had been disconnected! goes onto the new subframe nice and easy tho!
Job for tomorrow appart from fit the new frame and connect all the brakes back up is to get the drums off the new frame and check the conditions of the drums/shoes that are already on it! if they look a bit worn or like they'll need replacing soon i'm just going to stick my minifins and some new shoes i've got lying around on!! (like i needed an excuse to get round to that bit!!)

[Gr4H4m]

well done mate sounds like you are well on the road.:)

[charlie_mini]

MOT day looming tomorrow, maybe this time i will be rewarded with a lovely certificate!! :)

[Siano :)]

Hopefully :) will keep my fingers crossed for u :D

[Gr4H4m]

good luck mate

[TONYELF]

:) Good luck Eric, I'll keep everything crossed for you M8

[charlie_mini]

cheers, you'll here it here first if she passes! :D

[Siano :)]

should hope we do :p

[charlie_mini]

Still NO magic bit of paper to let me drive her yet.. got up early today especially to drop her off before 8.30am (dont normally get up till 8.45 to be in work for 9!) and the garage didn't manage to get round to her.... the suspense is killing me!! :(

[Gr4H4m]

ooo I can feel a pass in my water works:D Fingers cross mate

[TONYELF]

Thats the trouble with certain MOT stations, they ask you to leave the car with them for the day, which means you can't watch them do it (or not do it) and you don't know if they have even tried to look at it.
I've been lucky in the past to be able to just take it in on spec and get it done immediately, pass or no pass. If its not done tomorrow-complain , if there is anyone to complain to!! otherwise go elsewhere,
I know it will cost you more but at least you will have the satifaction fo knowing its been checked by someone else and when it passes, it MUST be OK?????

[charlie_mini]

Well i had it tested today, as i guessed, it failed!
So far its cost me £80 just in tests and i've only just been told the problems! :( This time she failed on:
- Both front wheel bearings - excessive play (i couldn't rock the wheels and i've had the bearings off, they're ok.)
- all 4 ball joints (apparently they may just need re-shimming but this could cause the excessive play that they've said is the bearings!)
-Front subframe mounting bushes (not the teardrop mounts i changed 2 weeks ago, the other mountings!)
-4 ball joint locking tabs are missing (2 one side isn't completely hammered down and the other is- i've not ever been able to get them off!!)
-brake pipe on rear subframe fouling bodywork ?
-n/s sill inadequately joined to bodywork (its double seam welded on!)
-front panel inadequately joined to bodywork ??
-both rear shocks inadequately damping
-emmisions too high


All in all that means that no one is getting any presents this year! tax is up at the end of this month! still no car! and will have spent £120 on an mot that last year would have cost me £30!
how exactly does the government think putting the price up and getting rid of free re-tests makes things better for us!???

:(:(

[TONYELF]

Sorry to hear that Eric,without seeing. It makes it hard to comment. Is this all at one MOT station? Did you put a brick through the Testers window when you were younger? I bet you feel like doing that now! Chin up M8, its not the end of the world.
Whats your plan now, another MOT station? (for second opinion?) how about putting name of this MOT station on forum so as to warn other members.

[liam_italian]

Take it too a different MOT centre mate!

[charlie_mini]

this was at the second mot station!! :(

[liam_italian]

Hmmm, you should have got the tester to show you where the problems are m8! Also about the welding to the subframe, anykind of repair to the subframe means it will be failed on an MOT, unless you hide the repair that it, which i do not recommend you do!

[charlie_mini]

i've put a new subframe on now, got it from m&m's and spent last week fitting it!
apparently the guy has chalked on the car were the problems are and were the buts of welding need looking at, i still haven't seen the car yet, will do when i get home!

[Gr4H4m]

Beep Beep Beep Beep Beeeeeeeeeeeep.

Sad for you mate..... man you are going to have a minter with you get it finished..... DO you want me to drop your colour tune off.


Well i had it tested today, as i guessed, it failed!
So far its cost me £80 just in tests and i've only just been told the problems! :( This time she failed on:
- Both front wheel bearings - excessive play (i couldn't rock the wheels and i've had the bearings off, they're ok.)
- all 4 ball joints (apparently they may just need re-shimming but this could cause the excessive play that they've said is the bearings!)
-Front subframe mounting bushes (not the teardrop mounts i changed 2 weeks ago, the other mountings!)
-4 ball joint locking tabs are missing (2 one side isn't completely hammered down and the other is- i've not ever been able to get them off!!)
-brake pipe on rear subframe fouling bodywork ?
-n/s sill inadequately joined to bodywork (its double seam welded on!)
-front panel inadequately joined to bodywork ??
-both rear shocks inadequately damping
-emmisions too high


All in all that means that no one is getting any presents this year! tax is up at the end of this month! still no car! and will have spent £120 on an mot that last year would have cost me £30!
how exactly does the government think putting the price up and getting rid of free re-tests makes things better for us!???

:(:(

[Siano :)]

unlucky eric, its just charlie being greedy for xmas!!! keep ya chin up an the good work and she'll be road worty in no time!! :D

[charlie_mini]

Well another freezing night outside under that mini! but tonight mathew i have mostly been....
- taking out my petrol tank (again) changing my rear dampers - nice new ones on there now.
- stoping my brake pipe 'being fouled by moving parts' (it had been knocked quite close to the handbrake spring!)
- fitting new front subframe mounts to the back of the 'frame
-welding 4 more inches (in total - not in a straight line!) along bits of the sill were there wasn't enough coverage - within 30cm of each corner on the bottom edge!
- Welding some spot/stitch? welds on my front panel mounting points to make them stronger...

But a tradgedy has struck!!!
after striping the ball joints and bearings down last week after the last guy said they had gone (they hadn't, they were then cleaned and re-greased and re-fitted) I can't find my locking wheel nut now! that means i'm stuck now untill i find it!
so near yet so far..... :(

[Deano]

Good work mate shame about the locking wheel nut what make are they? i can usually get them off:rolleyes: Mc gaurd ones prove most difficult but can get them off with abit of time.

[charlie_mini]

we managed to get them off, as i type this the car is back in the garage. i've tightened the bearings, ball joints, bent the rear brake pipe out of the way, fitted 2 new dampers and re-welded part of the sill again, but we've told the guy everything is done but if the welding isn't quite there he is going to touch it up...
fingers crossed i should be mobile by the end of today!:D

[Gr4H4m]

any news mate......

[Deano]

Good luck got everything crossed mate:)

[Siano :)]

Good luck got everything crossed mate:)

me too :D good luck :)

[Siano :)]

any news on charlie yet???

[Gr4H4m]

he must of passed and is too busy burning arround in Charlie... I hope so:o

[Siano :)]

:D thats wot i was thinking!!

[moddinmad]

no such luk he's out gettin jen more presents ha ha, only the wheel bearings to do now...

[charlie_mini]

no such luk he's out gettin jen more presents ha ha, only the wheel bearings to do now...
Yeah, no such luck, tightened the bearings and everything else up, jacked the car and tried to wobble the wheels, the only movement i get is the steering rack moving as i turn them! but never the less the mot garage insists that i need new bearings! thats my job for tomorrow now while jen is at work! who knows, i might have a mini by 2007!! :mad:
I've had to take a break from doin the car as the garage closed on friday 22nd and doesn't re-open till 2nd jan so no major rush! got the wheel bearings sat here waiting to go on but needed to get jen some presents and spend some time with her otherwise i would be in buckets of trouble!!

[TONYELF]

Yeah, no such luck, tightened the bearings and everything else up, jacked the car and tried to wobble the wheels, the only movement i get is the steering rack moving as i turn them! but never the less the mot garage insists that i need new bearings! thats my job for tomorrow now while jen is at work! who knows, i might have a mini by 2007!! :mad:
I've had to take a break from doin the car as the garage closed on friday 22nd and doesn't re-open till 2nd jan so no major rush! got the wheel bearings sat here waiting to go on but needed to get jen some presents and spend some time with her otherwise i would be in buckets of trouble!!

It is quite cosy in some dog kennels Eric ! LOL
No seriously, you are doing a great job, the more you do yourself the more satisfied you'll be (and more confident when you go to Italy next year?:D