I have reached my limit

[Gr4H4m]

I have reached my limit. I have fitted everything as I think it correct and set the carbs as per the standards when rebuilding for mixture and idle speed.

So after fitting the head and carbs, getting arround the exhaust problem, its starts..... but runs like a peice of junk.... It sounds a bit tapperty but I have checked them three times, and everytime I put my foot on the loud pedal it goes to stall. So I presume its mixture???? Would I need to re-time the engine?

Me being stupid painted the new manifold which is now burning off.... as I was stupid and didn't think to use heat paint. Worring too much about getting all back together...

SO guys what should I do? its too rough to get it to a Rolling Road??? And there was me thinking I could get it going for tomorrow.

[Gr4H4m]

oh yer and at one stage it tried to pop out of the filters. (I was using the choke to see if it was mixture???

[Gr4H4m]

oh I set the following when I rebuilt the carbs:

Mixture - Flush to the bridge the down two full turns
Fast idle - screwed to the cam then in two turns
Idle - 1 full turn from the point the chokes start to open.
I don't know what the needles are as I couldn't get them out unless I damaged them so I left them in.


oohh I 'm a dope I haven't put any oil in the carbs.... be back in a min.

[Gr4H4m]

well theres oil in the carbs, but still running rough. I think it must be mixture settings but not sure which way to turn the nuts or how much.

I starts ok so I think that the timing must be ok.

I think I'm going to have to remove the carbs and clean all of the paint off of the manifold thats going to be a ball ache. and the thermo stat housing it leaking I used a bit of gasket sealant this time I didn't so I not a success realy but thats mini's....

Any advice on the running would be much appreciated.

[charlie_mini]

sounds like the timing could be out a little bit, even if it is out the engine generally starts as long as its not miles out... i found mine running really badly, set the mixture perfect with a colourtune, (you can borrow it if you want - not as good as experience when setting the carbs up but it works!) but the timing was out so everytime i accelerated the acceleration suddenly went flat! and poped, backfired, choked and generally ran like spanners!
in terms of the mixture screw, on mine its a screw at the back left as you look in the engine from the front, slightly underneath, and if you twist it backwards weakens the mixture, turning it towards the front makes it richer.
hope that helps??
let me know if you want to use that colour tune - i'll bring it tomorrow!
(deano is much better than anything you buy in halfords tho!!)

[Gr4H4m]

sounds like the timing could be out a little bit, even if it is out the engine generally starts as long as its not miles out... i found mine running really badly, set the mixture perfect with a colourtune, (you can borrow it if you want - not as good as experience when setting the carbs up but it works!) but the timing was out so everytime i accelerated the acceleration suddenly went flat! and poped, backfired, choked and generally ran like spanners!
in terms of the mixture screw, on mine its a screw at the back left as you look in the engine from the front, slightly underneath, and if you twist it backwards weakens the mixture, turning it towards the front makes it richer.
hope that helps??
let me know if you want to use that colour tune - i'll bring it tomorrow!
(deano is much better than anything you buy in halfords tho!!)

Hi Mate yes please... see you tomorrow

[charlie_mini]

cool! ill try finding the destructions to go with it aswell! :D my room is like a tardis! cant find anything when i need it but cant get rid of it when i dont!

[TONYELF]

isn't it right when the colour is bright yellow or am I wrong there? Lad next door did my Viva once and when it went well for ages, but you must have plugs and points gaps spot on as well as timing. I have a strobe if you want to borrow it. will bring it tomorrow anyway (you'll need tippex or white paint as well)

[TONYELF]

also got dwell meter if you want

[TONYELF]

and a compreesion tester!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[charlie_mini]

'the elf's mobile mechanic service!' :D
the way they set up are turn the mix right down till the car nearly cuts out, run the engine till its warm, then put the glass plug in. start the car again and check the colour. the plug glows bunsen blue when the mix is right and yellow when it is too rich. coz its twin carbs you'll have do do it twice, once for each carb in a cylinder that's fed by the carb you're tuning (like your right hand carb with the plug in no1) then again in cylinder 4 and adjusting the left carb.
your best sortin your timing out first tho. on your's you should also be able to set the static timing before starting it, then tweek it once the engine is running. there was something in minimag last month? i've got it anyway, i'll have a look for that too!

[Deano]

Hello Graham i know its a stupid question but are the plug leads on the right way its very easy to put them on the wrong way around:o & did the head come with the valve`s in or have you got to lap them in yourself? Put the old carb back on if it runs ok you know its the new ones.
Are they twin hs2`s? 1 1/4

[supadupacupa]

ok, I dont want to teach you how to suck eges, so if I am, forgive me.

it runs and I presume it is not miss fireing at Idle, that rules out the leads being on wrong.

The hight of the choke sound about right and the the fact that you stall it when you nail the throttle would point to too much fuel. Screwing down increases the fuel, up weakens it. Do both carbs equally.

Did you center the needles in the dash pot? Are both needle's and spring the same?

You do this by leveling the jet in the body, unscrewing the nut under the carb body(the uppermost one) and pushing the needle down (by using the piston) until it is flush with the jet. Tighten the nut under the carb body and reset the level of the jet (2-2.5) full turns. Do this on both carbs. It is easier with them on a bench.

Unsure that the butterflies close properly and that they do it together at the same time (you may need to fiddle with the linkages a little).

Make sure the piston pass the drop test, or near enough and you are not far out for starting, look in any workshop manual but you are looking 3-4 secs and hopefully dropping together. Static timing will be fine for starting, you can fine tune later. A good guide when running is to disconnect the vacum, turn the dizzy clockwise until the revs increase and then back it off a little to just the point they drop, lock up the dizzy plate and re-connect the vacume.
You should be able to look at a 800-900 rpm idle if it is set up right.

Make sure that there are no air leaks, do this by getting it ticking over and spray WD40 on the various joint's and gaskets using the straw you get with the tin. If the revs rise when this happens, you have a air leak at that point.

From there you can use the colour tune but remember, colour tunes were first made when we had lead in petrol so the colours are not as relevant. I think the lead provides the blue colouration and therefore I would make allowances for that and then take it out for a test drive. Set the tappets at 14 thou all over for now.

Check the plugs have not oiled up, machine shops use a fair bit of oil when skimming.

Good luck and if you are still having problems, PM me and give you a buzz.

[Gr4H4m]

Thanks all of your posts will give them a try at the weekend. and thanks to Eric and tony for the gear.
As everyone appears to be watching my mayhem and knack to bite off more than I can...... can't say anymore too much in my mouth :D , I will keep you all posted.....

[Gr4H4m]

ok, I dont want to teach you how to suck eges, so if I am, forgive me.

it runs and I presume it is not miss fireing at Idle, that rules out the leads being on wrong.

The hight of the choke sound about right and the the fact that you stall it when you nail the throttle would point to too much fuel. Screwing down increases the fuel, up weakens it. Do both carbs equally.

Did you center the needles in the dash pot? Are both needle's and spring the same?

You do this by leveling the jet in the body, unscrewing the nut under the carb body(the uppermost one) and pushing the needle down (by using the piston) until it is flush with the jet. Tighten the nut under the carb body and reset the level of the jet (2-2.5) full turns. Do this on both carbs. It is easier with them on a bench.

Unsure that the butterflies close properly and that they do it together at the same time (you may need to fiddle with the linkages a little).

Make sure the piston pass the drop test, or near enough and you are not far out for starting, look in any workshop manual but you are looking 3-4 secs and hopefully dropping together. Static timing will be fine for starting, you can fine tune later. A good guide when running is to disconnect the vacum, turn the dizzy clockwise until the revs increase and then back it off a little to just the point they drop, lock up the dizzy plate and re-connect the vacume.
You should be able to look at a 800-900 rpm idle if it is set up right.

Make sure that there are no air leaks, do this by getting it ticking over and spray WD40 on the various joint's and gaskets using the straw you get with the tin. If the revs rise when this happens, you have a air leak at that point.

From there you can use the colour tune but remember, colour tunes were first made when we had lead in petrol so the colours are not as relevant. I think the lead provides the blue colouration and therefore I would make allowances for that and then take it out for a test drive. Set the tappets at 14 thou all over for now.

Check the plugs have not oiled up, machine shops use a fair bit of oil when skimming.

Good luck and if you are still having problems, PM me and give you a buzz.

Trust me I could do with showing how to suck eggs. Thank for the post very informative. Going to start work on the car asap..... Going to check for leaks and try to make a better job of setting the mixture. The timing was bang on when I had the single carb. I will have a go and let you know what happens. Thanks for the post:cool:

[supadupacupa]

If the timing was right before then it will be good enough now.

[Gr4H4m]

If the timing was right before then it will be good enough now.

Thats what I was thinking, I'm going to get the car warm'd up and then balance the carbs, I will have a go at using the colour tune to give a better mixture setup, should give me enough to get it to the rolling road.

I'm also going to double check the tappet clearances again.


But first I need to sand all of the paint off of the exhaust manifold... as I was stupid and used hammerite paint.... got carried away without thinking, it was then burning off.

One good think I love the look of the exhaust....:cool:

[Gr4H4m]

Right the carbs are back off... I have noticed that one of the pistons wasn't falling properly there was a small gap... strange as I had completed the clunk test several times when I rebuilt them.. So I'm going to take that one apart and find out why.....

I also need to get all of the paint off the manifold which is going to be a pain....:mad: still that will teach me for being stupid.... as its smoking bad whilst all of the paint was burning off.... not a good look...

Then its back to beginning again.. I need to take the John method of car repair and upgrade in future.;)

[Deano]

Auto Nitromors will get the hammerite off a treat just paint it on leave it gogles on then jet was off:)

[Gr4H4m]

Auto Nitromors will get the hammerite off a treat just paint it on leave it gogles on then jet was off:)

What a cool idea I was going to get the sand paper out....... Just saved my arm loads of work...:D

[Deano]

I use it to strip the paint off engine blocks so its good stuff just dont get it in your eye`s it hurts:rolleyes: dont taste to good either lol

[Gr4H4m]

well i found a problem with the twin carbs, one of the needles wasn't centred and the piston wouldn't drop all of the way to the bridge.

but the nut and bolt that holds the linkage bar for the throttle snapped :o This isn't becoming the easiest install

[Gr4H4m]

I have fixed the carbs... thanks to Deano for lending me a set to swap the broken part from.....
The pistons now fall easily and the chokes work smoothly. The throttles open together and I have set the mixture to two turns from the bridge as this is what it said in the SU instructions rather than the 2.5 in the mini mag article.

One of the jets wasn’t centred on the needle so it was sticking every now and again so this would have been one of the problems…..

So I need to clean the paint from the manifold and I can have another go….

[supadupacupa]

Sounds like your getting there now.

Make sure you use new gaskets if possible, or at least good ones.

And when you re-fit the carbs, try and use the location rings in the manifold.

People take them out, thinking they restict flow. They dont and it ensures tey fit bang on and dont leak.

[Gr4H4m]

Sounds like your getting there now.

Make sure you use new gaskets if possible, or at least good ones.

And when you re-fit the carbs, try and use the location rings in the manifold.

People take them out, thinking they restict flow. They dont and it ensures tey fit bang on and dont leak.


mm you mean those location rings that were removed about 10 years ago:o

When I was a lot younger and wanted to fit them to my standard head... oops

I have used new gaskets on everything

[supadupacupa]

I'll have a look to see if I have a spare set knocking about if you need them.

[Gr4H4m]

The throttle cable looked a bit dodgy, it had started to stick but it was only 18 months old, do I have got a longer one for the twin SU, Teflon coated to help it stop sticking….

[TONYELF]

Back to Charlie minis comment "the Elf's mobile mechanics Service."
I'll have you know it's the same firm Eric works for "The National Elf Service"
LOL:D

[Gr4H4m]

carbs on tomorrow as I have the day off... so will have to see how she runs

[Gr4H4m]

SHE's ALIVE!!! :eek:

[charlie_mini]

good stuff! is it running well???

[Gr4H4m]

good stuff! is it running well???

Not too bad but... I think there is more to come from it....:D I used the lift pin method for setting the mixture but I'm stabbing in the dark a bit.. She runs wel enough to drive and feels nippy.. which is just what I was looking for....

I'm currently very pleased as it has been a fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuouwD0snN8

[Deano]

Fantastic mate sounds good i like the vid too:)

[supadupacupa]

Good news, should go nice now.

Tuned thou's are much sweeter than the big bore lumps. If set up right, they just spin up and are great to drive.

Enough power to have fun but not enough to cause you to much trouble. Ive read elsewhere your having it set up today (?), I reackon you'll be close on 50bhp at the flywheel.

Nowa lightened flywheel, a little negative camber and a decent set of shocks...

I loved my thou, in events and trackdays although it didn't have all out poke, it rev'd hard all day, cornered like a good 'en and touch wood, never went bang or overheated.

[Gr4H4m]

Good news, should go nice now.

Tuned thou's are much sweeter than the big bore lumps. If set up right, they just spin up and are great to drive.

Enough power to have fun but not enough to cause you to much trouble. Ive read elsewhere your having it set up today (?), I reackon you'll be close on 50bhp at the flywheel.

Nowa lightened flywheel, a little negative camber and a decent set of shocks...

I loved my thou, in events and trackdays although it didn't have all out poke, it rev'd hard all day, cornered like a good 'en and touch wood, never went bang or overheated.


I'm hoping for 50bhp... but lets see.... as for shocks, I don't have any im on Hydro mmm smooth

[charlie_mini]

hi mate, just tried that WinSU and put your set up into it.... it came back saying you've got more power than it thinks you should!!

Carburettor(s) : Twin SU HIF44 (44mm / 1.75inch)
Engine type : A series (Mini/Metro/Midget/Minor)
Capacity : 998cc
Gearbox type : A/A+ series 4 speed transverse gearbox (Mini/Metro etc)
Wheels/tyres : 12inch + 155/50R12
Engine details...
Air filter : K&N cone or similar
Inlet : Minispares/Peco/Torquemaster etc
Cylinder head : 998cc head (12G202/12G295 Cooper)
Camshaft : Standard
Rockers : Standard
Exhaust system : LCB + Medium bore (1-2inch) single-box
Ignition system : Standard distributor with points and condensor and uprated coil
Cooling system : Standard metal or plastic mechanical fan
Gearbox details...
Gearbox type : Standard 4 synchro helical
Transfer gears : Standard helical
Final drive : 2.75:1 final drive
Recommended carb(s) : Single 1.5" (HS4/HIF38)
Performance analysis...
Power at flywheel (bhp) : 53.564
Power at wheels (bhp) : 41.566
Transmission loss (bhp) : 11.998
Torque (lbft) : 56.264
0-60mph time (secs) : 16.595
Maximum speed (mph) : 95.105
Transmission ratio (mph/krpm) : 19.587
Quarter mile time (secs) : 19.349
Acceleration (g) : 0.165
Power to weight ratio (bhp/tonne) : 66.955
Specific output (bhp/litre) : 53.671
Fueling constant (bhp/mmsq) : 18.000
Tuning factor : 1.193

[Gr4H4m]

Thanks mate but I'm running twin 1.25 (HS2) does that make a difference? oh and the A+ would make better use of the head as it has flat top pistons where mine are dished so my C/R is lower?

[charlie_mini]

Thanks mate but I'm running twin 1.25 (HS2) does that make a difference? oh and the A+ would make better use of the head as it has flat top pistons where mine are dished so my C/R is lower?
the a/a+ was the only options there so i guess the difference is neglagble on the calculations, would prob be something you notice in real life! also half way thru it asks you if the gears are a or a+, doesnt take the pisons into considerations in the options it gives you...
if you change the carbs it gives you
53bhp at the flywheel and 41 at the wheels...

[Gr4H4m]

the a/a+ was the only options there so i guess the difference is neglagble on the calculations, would prob be something you notice in real life! also half way thru it asks you if the gears are a or a+, doesnt take the pisons into considerations in the options it gives you...
if you change the carbs it gives you
53bhp at the flywheel and 41 at the wheels...

mm booo It might have been the head gasket I was running. Finished installing the new one today, the exhaust gasket was leaking as I have re-used it twice that the middle exhaust chamber was blowing very badly. I ghot one from The quality factor in chester behind staples. The gasket was very good nice and thick. Did the job lovely, going to take it for a run tomorrow see what its like.

I might get the compression tested to see if its all ok...

I don't want to jinx it but so far no leaking. :D