Starter cable

[cam]

Everyone: meet Wott. :) He is almost a month old. Pictures of his innards to follow as I bugger them up...

Today he doesn't start. It sounds just like a flat battery, but I've taken it to a battery shop and they told me it's good, strong and healthy, and I've checked that the connections are tight. (This was the issue that I was checking out when I noticed that the head gasket had gone; now it's been replaced, but he still won't start).

So I was turning the engine over, watching and thinking, and I saw a tendril of smoke coming up from below the distributor. Turns out it was coming from the cable that connects from the solonoid to the starter motor (it was quite hot and starting to melt the rubber covering).

I checked that the nut was fastened tightly, and it was, but the stud that it attaches to is floating loose.

So... could that cause the car not to start? it *is* turning over... If the car has this low-battery-sounding issue, how would you go about debugging it? loose earth? obstruction?

He's always had a bit of an issue with this; I've been told it's because I have a mechanical fuel pump, and as a result extra (unburned) petrol is being sent to the combustion chamber when I stop the motor, and then expanding and the resulting pressure is stopping the motor from turning. This sounds fishy but it does gel with what I've been experiencing, except that now the motor just won't start, and it's certainly quite cold.

I'll charge the battery tonight, anyway.

tia for any ideas hints etc!

campbell

[Steve]

Sounds to me like your starter motor is jamming.

[cam]

Hi,

I've replaced my starter with a working one, and it still does the same thing; slowly turns about 5-10 times before it stops. *Exactly* like the battery is flat, except that this battery starts the other cars, and a fresh battery makes no difference in this car.

Using the haynes book I've checked the battery voltage > 11.7 volts, and that the voltage at the coil + terminal is well within 1 volt of that at the battery. I've tried using a fresh coil as well, just in case, and run through a bunch of other haynes tests, so far all right.

I know that my fuel pump (a mechanical one) ran with a big air leak on the intake hose for a couple of days - might it be getting in the way now, having ceased or something like that?

Otherwise.. I parked it one evening and the next morning it refused to start.

Help!

[Steve]

Hi Cam sorry to hear about mini here are trouble shooter they may help.


Trouble Shooter FAULT CAUSE CURE
Starter will not turn engine (headlights dim) 1. Battery low 1. Charge battery and check charging system.
2. Faulty battery 2. Fit new battery.
3. Corroded battery cables or loose connections 3. Clean battery connections or replace battery leads. Tighten battery and startermotor connections.
4. Starter jammed 4. Free starter.
5. Seized engine 5. Remove spark-plugs to confirm.
Starter will not turn engine (headlights bright) 1. Faulty starter solenoid 1. Replace solenoid.
2. Faulty starter engagement (starter-motor whine) 2. Clean or replace starter bendix.
3. Faulty starter 3. Repair or replace starter motor.
4. Faulty ignition switch 4. Fit new switch.
Engine turns slowly but will not start 1. Battery low 1. Charge battery and check charging system.
2. Faulty battery 2. Replace battery.
3. Corroded battery leads or loose connections 3. Clean battery connections or -replace battery leads. Tighten connections.
4. Faulty starter 4. Repair or replace starter motor.
Engine turns but will not fire 1. Ignition fault Check for spark at plug lead.
2. No spark at plug lead 2. Check coil output to confirm high or low-tension fault. If spark from coil, check HT leads, distributor cap and rotor arm, parti-cularly for cracks, tracking or dampness. If no spark from coil, check ignition-coil connections and contact-breaker points for short circuits or disconnection.
3. Spark at plug lead 3. Remove air cleaner from carburettor and check choke operation. Loosen petrolpipe union at carburettor. Turn engine by starter for a mechanical pump, or switch on ignition for electric pump. Check if petrol is being delivered.
4. Fuel reaching carburettor 4. Look into carburettor mouth. Operate throttle and observe whether damp or dry. If dry, clean jets and needle valve. If damp, remove spark-plugs, dry, clean and check gaps.
5. No fuel to carburettor 5. Remove petrol-tank cap and check for fuel.
6. Car with electric fuel pump 6. Check pump has a good earth and give pump a sharp tap. If it starts pumping, which will be heard, replace pump. If not fuel lines may be blocked.
7. Car with mechanical pump 7. Remove pump-top cover, clean pump filter and make sure the cover, when refitted, is airtight. Check flexible pipe to pump for air leaks.
Engine backfires 1. Ignition timing faulty 1. Check and reset ignition timing.
2. Damp distributor cap and leads 2. Dry thoroughly and check firing order.


STARTER
Starter doesn't turn (lights dim) 1. Battery flat or worn. 1. Charge or fit new battery.
2. Bad connection in battery circuit 2. Check all feed and earth connections.
Starter doesn't turn (lights stay bright) 1. Faulty ignition switch 1. Check switch.
2. Broken starter circuit 2. Check starter circuit.
Solenoid switch chatters 1. Flat battery 1. Charge or replace battery.
Starter just spins 1. Bendix gear sticking 1. Remove starter and clean or replace Bendix gear.


STARTER MOTOR
Removal & Installation First, disconnect the battery. Remove the nut from the terminal on the end of the starter motor and disconnect the starter cable. Remove the two bolts (lower one first) retaining the starter motor to the engine and withdraw the starter motor from its location.
Install the starter motor in the reverse order of removing.
The starter motor may be either a Lucas M35G or a M35J type, the latter being a later fitment. Although externally similar, apart from the brush cover band on the M35G type, they differ mainly in two respects. The M35G type has a peripheral contact commutator on which the brushes bear from the side, whereas the M35J has a facetype commutator where the brushes bear on the end face. In the M35J unit, the field windings are earthed to the starter yoke but the brush box assembly and the commutator end plate brushes are fully insulated. The end terminal post is connected directly to the end plate brushes.
The M35G field windings are insulated from the yoke and incorporate the field terminal post, but the end plate brushes are earthed directly to the end plate.

Brushes - M35G Starter

A good indication of the brush condition can be obtained by inspecting the brushes through the apertures in the starter body, after sliding away the cover band. If the brushes are damaged or worn so that they no longer make good contact on the commutator, they should be renewed as a set.
The brushes can be further inspected by lifting the brush springs, using a piece of hooked wire, and withdrawing them from their holders on the commutator end plate.
If the brushes are to be replaced, remove the nuts, washers and insulation bush from the field terminal post at the end plate. Unscrew the two through-bolts and withdraw the end plate from the starter body.
Inspect the contact surface on the outside of the commutator or any signs of wear, burning or other damage. If the surface is blackened or dirty, it should be wiped clean with a petrol-moistened cloth. Slight imperfections can be removed with fine glass paper, but emery cloth or similar abrasive must not be used. If the commutator is grooved, scored or badly worn, it should be skimmed or replaced.
To renew the earthed brushes on the commutator end plate, unsolder the flexible lead from the terminal eyelet adjacent to the brush holder. Open the eyelet, then insert the replacement brush lead, squeeze the eyelet closed and resolder the connection.
To renew the insulated brushes on the field coils, cut the existing brush leads approximately 1/4 in (6 mm) from the field coil connection. Clean the ends of the copper leads still attached to the field coils and solder the new brush leads to them. Note that the insulated brushes have longer leads then the earthed brushes, and also have a braided covering.
Check the new brushes for freedom of movement in their respective holders. Ease them if necessary by cleaning both the brushes and holders with a petrol-moistened cloth, or by polishing the sides of the brushes lightly with a fine file.
Check that the insulator band is fitted between the starter body and the end of the field coils, and that the insulating bush for the field terminal post is also fitted to the commutator end plate. Also check that the thrust washer is in place in the end of the armature shaft.
Pass the field brushes out through the apertures in the starter body. Fit the earthed brushes in their respective holders in the end plate and locate the brush springs on the side of each brush to hold them in the raised position.
Assemble the end plate to the starter body, ensuring that the locating dowel on the plate correctly engages the notch in the yoke. Fit the through-bolts and tighten securely. Assemble the insulation bush, washers and nuts on the field terminal post.
lift the brush springs and fit the field brushes into their respective holders. Press the brushes down into the commutator, then lift the brush springs into position on top of the brushes. Refit the brush cover band over the brush apertures and tighten the clamp screw to secure.

Brushes - M35J Starter

In this case the commutator end plate must be removed to allow inspection of the brushes as inspection apertures are not provided.
Remove the two retaining screws and withdraw the commutator end plate from the starter yoke. Withdraw the two field brushes from the brush box on the end plate and separate the end plate from the yoke.
Inspect the brushes for wear or damage. Brushes which are worn to, or are approaching the wear limit of 3/8 in (10 mm) must be renewed as a set.
Inspect the contact surface on the end of the commutator for any signs of scoring, burning or other damage. If the surface is grooved or badly scored, the commutator should be skimmed or replaced. If the surface is merely blackened or dirty it can be cleaned with a petrol-moistened cloth, or fine glass paper, but emery cloth or similar abrasive must not be used for this purpose.
If the brushes on the commutator end plate are to be renewed, these are supplied attached to a new terminal post. Withdraw both brushes from their holders, then remove the nuts, washers and insulation sleeve from the terminal post and withdraw the terminal post and remove the insulation piece. Install the new brushes and terminal post in the reverse order of removing. Ensure that the insulation piece and sleeve are correctly located. Retain the longer brush lead under the clip on the end plate.
If the field winding brushes are to be renewed, these are supplied attached to a common lead. Cut the old brush leads approximately 1/4 in (6 mm) from their joint on the field windings. Clean the leads still attached to the joint and solder the common lead of the new brushes to them. Do not attempt to solder directly to the field winding strip as this may be made of aluminium.
Check the brushes for freedom of movement in their respective holders. Any brushes which are stiff should be cleaned with a petrol-moistened cloth, or eased by lightly polishing the sides of the brush with a fine file.
Install the two commutator end brushes and the two filed winding brushes in their respective holders on the brush box.
Check that the thrust washer is in position on the end of the armature shaft, then assemble the commutator end plate to the starter yoke. Secure the end plate with the two retaining screws.

Drive Pinion

If difficulty is experienced with the starter motor pinion not meshing correctly with the flywheel ring gear, it may be that the drive assembly requires cleaning. The pinion and barrel assembly should move freely on the screwed sleeve. If there is dirt or other foreign matter on the sleeve it should be washed off with paraffin. Do not use grease or oil on the drive assembly as this would attract dirt.

[Cooper D]

Some good trouble shooting ther!:cool:

[charlie_mini]

wow!

[cam]

Shot! It's got my problem in there, Engine turns slowly but will not start.

1. Battery low

nope - charged all night, also tried a fresh battery...

2. Faulty battery

nope - checked at a battery shop, they say it's happy

3. Corroded battery leads or loose connections

I tried with a different earth lead (mine goes to a cutoff switch). I bought new lugs, and checked the connections at the battery and the solonoid, they are sound.

4. Faulty starter 4. Repair or replace starter motor.

This starter does start the other car (1098cc). The other car's working starter has the same problem with this car. The starter bits move freely and the connection from the solonoid to the starter is solid. (my starter is quite new - the last one was jamming so I replaced it)

does this mean my motor is fscked? what the hell is going on here? :/

[Steve]

Try it with out the cut off switch. This may help.:confused:

[cam]

Yeah, that's what I've done with the other earth lead - it's a regular short one, and I put it onto the body of the car in the boot, without any fancy tricks.

I just removed the petrol pump (it seems fine) and slackened the fan belt, and STILL the engine sort of turns over just ONCE and no more - and that's all. Shoop. Click Shoop. Click Shoo-oo-oop. I'm about ready to buy a friggin &($^@&# vw golf, except that I'm flat broken poor. :/ and then you *know* its bad when I say things like that!

thanks anyway for your help.. it helps to have someone to rant to other than the car (who is the object of much verbal abuse).

[Gafmo]

Can you Clutch Start it

[Cymro]

Its your earth connection, make another!!!!!!!!!!1:cool:

[cam]

Thanks! The earth strap was a bit loose. I tightened it, and the motor then started to turn when I tried to start it! For about 10 seconds before it broke again. (the timing is out, so it won't start right away anyway.)

The car has been sitting in someone else's garage for a while now - so it's not every day that I can work on it :/

Now it just goes *CLICK* when I turn the key. Quite a forceful click. The wires jump when it clicks. And if I hold the key open in the start position, the cable from the battery to the solenoid, as well as the cable from the starter to the solenoid, get very very hot (it smells like melting rubber after a bit). The earth strap from the motor to the body also gets warm, but not as hot as the starter cable.

So I think either there is a leak or there is resistance somewhere. Here are the things I have checked:

1) The + lead from the battery to the solenoid: It's showing 13 volts at the solenoid, and I checked it carefully and taped all the weak areas (one area was already badly taped up). This cable is not perfect, but it is not contacting, and in the broken area there are only 5 strands of copper which are broken.

2) The ignition switch: I know it's working, because it CLICKs.

3) the battery negative strap: It definitely works.

4) The resistance between the motor and the body: negligible.

5) When the solenoid goes CLICK, the lights turn OFF.

6) There is a current (smaller than 12 volts, It shows between 1 and 3 volts) from the starter-cable side of the solenoid to the body when I turn the key. I don't keep the key turned long enough to get a fine reading because I don't want anything to burn.

7) There is continuity between the starter power stud and the body/negative.

8) The starter is not jammed - I know this because I have removed it and checked. The last one was *very* jammed, I had to hammer it to un-jam it, but this one is not jamming.

9) all other electrics (hooter flashers lights etc) are all working perfectly.

10) There is no leak between the battery + and the body -.

11) The solenoid: I have replaced it with another (working) one, just in case.

12) The battery: I took one from a working car.

13) The leads that enter the alternator are not contacting each other.

Maybe I am missing something? I have a feeling it is incredibly simple, but I just can't see it.

Please help me!? I am lost in the woods..

[Cymro]

Glad you havent given up!!!!!!! When you say the lights dim when you turn the ignition, unless your battery is flat (I take it the battery is good?) the problem still lies with a bad electrical connection!! You have checked and cleaned both terminals at battery, and cleaned the earth connection on the lead and boot floor? You also have a major earth lead from the bulkhead (by the engine stabilizer clutch master cylinder mounting plate) to the engine. To clean these properly, you will need to remove the bolts securing the EARTH strap, clean all mating surfaces, including the thread entering the body. When your satisfied with the job, get onto the POSITIVE lead. You need to disconnect the leads (both) from the solenoid and starter, clean all surfaces (irespective of which type of solenoid and starter you have) refit all connections making sure you dont overtighten the nuts especially on the solenoid.
One trick that I have learnt over the years is, if you have a set of jump leads, connect both together to make a direct feed from the battery terminal to a clean area near the starter.
As for the 5 strand cable, it would be better if you could cut the cable and make a good insulated joint. Hope this helps

[Cymro]

Sorry, but I take it that you have checked that the starter has not stuck?????

[Deano]

As Cymro sugest`s take the starter off and see if it works off the car ?

Is the Engine ok ? will it bump start?

You could have a dodgy Engine or a short on the starter:confused:

Hope you can sort it out mate:)

[Cymro]

By the way what type of starter is on the car? if you have a solenoid screwed to the o/s inner wing-remove it and clean all mating surfaces and replace, try it, if no luck, try with a strong wire (has to be fairly strong) to cross the two biggest connections on the solenoid,,,starter should turn

[cam]

*blush*

The plastic washer was letting current through. My car starts! I have a car!!!!! I put a couple of bits of insulation from the old battery cable on the stud, and the starter starts and the engine runs!

Thanks guys, for not giving up :)

[milly]

Engine to car body earth lead, check connections are clean and tight. Or for quick diagnossis put a jump lead from engine to chassis/ body and see if the car starts or starter turns faster.